Letter to a Friend (Part 5, conclusion)
I believe in a Real Right and a Real Wrong. Now we turn to the issue of objective morality or ethics (I’m using them interchangeably here). Have you ever wondered whether our outrage at the evil in this world is an expression of personal distaste? Whether the recent Virginia Tech shootings were objectively evil? I ask this because I’m of the view that without the God of the Christianity faith (i.e. the God revealed in the Old and New Testaments) the underpinnings of ethics are destroyed, and the moral motions that we feel every day of our lives are rendered non-sensical.
Now here’s an important note to take into consideration. I’m not saying that only Christians are moral people. On the flip side, neither am I saying that all non-Christians are horrible, evil people. What I’m talking about here is what are the fundamental foundations our assumption about reality that underlie our beliefs about morality, right and wrong. Richard Dawkins may very well be a nicer, kinder, and more law abidding citizen than I am. That’s not in question. The question is whether, on a worldview that rejects the existence of God, are those basic pillars that support our common everyday assumptions about ethics there? I don’t think that they are.
Without the infinite-personal God of the Bible, how do we define good and evil, right and wrong? I’m convinced that we can boil down the matter to only left two alternatives: either 1) an individual subjectivist response, and 2) a collective subjectivist response. For the sake of handling the various possible replies, I have distinguished the alternatives. However, as we will soon see, both alternatives reduce to subjectivism and skepticism.
Individual subjectivist responses. This is the view that a given acts our behavior is good or bad because I have chosen it. If I commit myself to a given path, it is good. If I am made to do something I chose not to do, it’s bad. If the non-Christian claims moral justification (that which makes a good acts good, and a bad act bad) is found in what one chooses to do, we are left with no standard whatsoever by which we can condemn the worst types of behavior. Pedophilia, rape, incest, bestiality, and murder, and all morally acceptable. Why? Because for those that commit such acts, they were the products of active volition. This view can be quickly be placed to one side.
Collective subjectivist responses. The term “collective subjectivist” may strike some as paradoxical at best and oxymoronic at worst, yet such a title is fitting for “society says” moral relativism. According to this position, morality is, in a weak sense, objective in that the individual is not free to create moral norms from scratch. They are to live within the ethical structure of societal consensus. Such an ethical standard is collective. Yet, on the other hand, it nevertheless remains a subjectivist position on meta-ethics (i.e. on how we philosophically justify or provide warrant for the system we’re espousing). What makes the collective approach ultimately subjectivist and indeed relativist is that each society determines it’s own moral norms, and accordingly, one culture (or sub-culture) cannot condemn the actions of another.
The problems for this approach are equally evident. If indeed no supra-cultural definition of evil (or good) exists, how can two or more cultures or sub-cultures with different standards of ethics be compared? Consistently applied, the collectivist subjectivist model prohibits us form labeling the crimes committed at Auschwitz evil. In fact, it becomes even more problematic because not all German citizens would have approved of the war crimes and genocide of the Nazis. So, what we are left with is at least two moral sub-cultures in WWII Germany, those that would call the Nazi actions evil, and those who participated in those actions and condoned them. But any system that strips us of the ability to make moral distinctions is highly counter-intuitive. A paradigm that seeks to explain our “moral motions” must respect the moral outrage we feel at events such as the holocaust.
Moreover, we do instinctively know right and wrong in most cases. We can proclaim moral relativism from the rooftops all day, that is, until someone steals our belongings, or hurts our family members. Suddenly we feel that it’s not something that we simply dislike, but rather that it is something that’s truly wrong! Then we become moral absolutists. Lastly, if we reduce we moral claims to preference claims then we would have to radically change the way we commonly speak. Instead of saying “The Terrorists who flew 2 airplanes into the World trade center buildings were wrong, and it was an evil act!”, we would have to replace it with, “I personally do not think that the Terrorists attack on Sept.11th was expedient, and it did not accord with my subjective tastes, but I could be wrong. I don’t want to “impose” my morality on anyone!” I feel my point has been made.
Lastly, allow me to touch upon why I believe that the Christian God is the best bet for explaining the our ‘moral motions.’ When we find our selves taken with a belief that person X should not have committed Y act, what we’re saying is that person X is morally obligated to have done the right and good thing. In the case of murder, we’re saying that person X ought to have a respect for innocent human life, and ought it a word that implies obligation. But, we do not have obligations to mere material things. I have no obligations not to throw a stone across a beach. The stone demands no such loyalty. But both obligations and loyalty can be pledged to a person. Personal relationships imply certain obligations and can demand loyalty. But what about ultimate moral obligations? Moral obligations are, after all, hierarchical. My loyalty to my brother places certain obligations in my path, but my relationship to my mother demands an even higher level or loyalty. But my mother cannot simply ask me to rob a store. If she did, I would have to tell her that I couldn’t because it would break the law and would (in principal) cause civil unrest. But what if my government told me that I am obligated by my citizenship to randomly kill any person living in my immediate community that was not born in America? What should I do then?
I would appeal to a higher standard of obligation. But what higher standard is there? Maybe one could say the ‘world community’, but that only pushes the question back one step. Ultimately, who’s my greatest loyalty to? If i’m correct to say that obligations and loyalty only make sense in the context of personal relationships, then ultimate loyalty is due to an Ultimate Personal, or, as I’ve said above, a Personal Absolute. But Christianity is the only religion in which the greatest thing in existence (the ultimate metaphysical reality) is a Personal Absolute. In other philosophies, religions, and myths, you have absolutes that are not personal (like Plato’s form of The Good, Hegel’s Geist, Brahma is Hinduism, etc.), or you’ll find personal gods or principles that aren’t absolute (the Greek Pantheon, the god of Mormonism, thetans in Scientenology, etc.) Only in the Bible do you find a God, the final reality, that is both person and absolute/ultimate. This in my mind is strong evidence for the Christian conception of God as the best explanation for ultimate, objective, universally binding ethics.
Conclusion. Now this is my reason for rejecting an empiricism model of epistemology. It cannot account for the metaphysical assumptions that underlie the scientific method, and it cannot account for the existence of universal, immaterial absolutes, such as numbers, laws of logic, and universally binding principles of ethics. While on a Christian worldview all such things make perfect sense, and in fact can be explained (at least at the beginners level) to a child in Sunday School. One may not agree with the answers posited by Christianity, but they have to admit that Christians do have answers to these philosophical issues. Thanks so much for listening to this (rather extended) letter. Also, please forgive me for the great length of time it has taken to complete it.
My prayer is that we can both understand the position of the other person fairly, and see where we’re coming from.
-JET
For more on absolute personalism, and a developed form of the argument for God based on morality, see:

August 3, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Hey Joe. I have some plans for today, but I’ll certainly be able to address this one quicker than before. I’m finally done with my summer courses, and have a few weeks off before UCF. I have one comment to make though, although I’ll amicably oblige you in any discussion, I didn’t personally agree to discussing, nor was I aware we were going to discuss – morals. I thought the focus was strictly epistemology. No worries though. I should have a reply up by tomorrow…
August 3, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Well, you see for me, this is all integrated. As I stated in my of first sections of this ‘letter’, Christianity is holistic, and I simply cannot neated seperat epistemology from ethics. So, if my chief reason for rejecting empiricism is my Christian epistemology, and a crucial component to demonstrating the rationality of Christian theism is its ethical system, I would be amiss to ignore it.
Besides this, empiricism is an epistemological system, it claims to explain how we know and what kinds of things are knowable (amongst other things). But ethical claims are interwoven with knowledge claims. If I tell someone, ‘you should murder an innocent person,’ they can legitimately ask, ‘How do you KNOW i shouldn’t?” I’m claiming that I KNOW murder of innocents to be wrong, so i’m taking an epistemological stance when I make this moral claim. So, as I said, this isn’t a tangent since ethical claims are indeed knowledge claims.
And if empiricism fails to explain and ground ethical claims outside of what i’ve called here personal-subjective and collective-subjective justifications, it fails as an epistemological system.
August 4, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Alright made my reply. I basically replied to each paragraph one by one, and then deleted out your paragraphs for the sake of space (Since we know how cumbersome the last exchange got)! It should all be chronological though.
That’s fine, but the thousands of sects of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and any other religion that has been a subsequent result of the OT, have not, and I highly doubt will ever, reach a consummate agreement on ethics. If the Christians alone can’t do it, anymore than the rest, I see no reason to subscribe myself to one holy book. As I’ve stated before, Christians, like everyone else, raise fine ethical and moral questions, but I can not, focus my time on one book. And I personally have found philosophy a better avenue, especially contemporary philosophy when it comes to contemporary issues (Ones Jesus just never mentioned like Civics, Economic structures, energy policy, medical policy, stem cell research, etc)
Well again, the Christians and any other religions based on the OT have no reached a consummate ethical agreement either. Nor do I expect you to reach one today, or honestly, ever. Personally I’ve always followed one that I explained to you in the first few exchanges before these hit the blogosphere. Whatever consenting adults agree to in privacy, so long as it’s consented, do it, I don’t care, not my business. Second, I try to mitigate suffering amongst all species the best I can. I try to weigh the pros and cons of that particular scenario, because we face so many nuanced challenges in life that the bible again does not cover, and I weight out which will result will leave the parties the most content, and in the least amount of suffering.
For the most part, minus the bible portion, I think we agree here. And again if we admit it becomes a subjective response, and the bible is antiquated, I now see the infinite-personal deity portion as completely superfluous. Also I find the concept of being moral, because you’re being “watched” from above, to be blackmail, and poltroon conformity. (I would say though I have a slight objective stance in my moral position, but that’s only the objective position of “does this result to suffering” – which for the most part can be an objective claim.)
Pedophilia is bad because the child isn’t consenting, and also isn’t learned enough to make an educated and informed adult decision anyway. The pederast is also manipulating the child, and willful deceit is wrong because it’s frankly deceitful. Finally, as you pointed out in #2, the non-believer, and believer come together on this agreement, so we are fine on this issue. Now of course judging the criminal here can be different. Perhaps the man was (in an extreme hollywood scenario) being blackmailed into the situation with something even worse being the outcome of his non conformity. If that be the case, and the man isn’t a pedophile by nature, but a victim, the sentence should change, then if he’s a pedophile by nature.
Rape, incest, bestiality, and murder all follow under what I said above, a lack of consent by both parties(I noticed you didn’t bring up homosexuality, swinging, polygamy, etc would that be because all of them are consentual acts?.) Also rape, incest, and murder all cause pain and suffering, and I’d presume bestiality as well. Finally all of these, to the best of my knowledge agree your stance on #2. So again, we’ve reached a conclusion without a deities intervention, or various religious sects that can’t come to a consummate agreement intervening.
That’s personally why I scorn those issues. My position has nothing to do with a deity, supernatural elements, dogmas, scripture, or afterlife punishment/reward.
In addition the bible is filled with rape and murder as corollaries:
(Judges 21:10-24 NLT) , (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT) , (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) ,
Now the punishment for rape in the bible is also minuscule compared to today:
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
Also if a woman is raped but also engaged, she is to be murdered for not getting away (I do NOT agree with that position, frankly I find it repulsive)
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
Of course slavery is also condoned in the bible. And I don’t think anyone in America still lives by Mark 10: 17
As far as Incest in the bible…well if Adam and Eve populated the Earth….you know where I’m going with this. I will ask you though, just to hear a reply (it’s a question I’ve yet to reach a conlcusion too).
If a brother and sister spend a night together in a hotel and consent to have sexual relations, with protection, one time, and to never tell anyone, or do it ever again – what is the problem?
The Aushwitz claim is tenuous. Perhaps Germany the Nation didn’t see the problem, but combine the collective subjective response of the world, and we may draw a different conclusion. Although either way I don’t much care, because they were causing suffering on a people that didn’t consent. That’s enough for my scorn. Regardless I agree with you, we have two sides of the debate, and we are drawing subjective positions for the most part. I still don’t see where scripture aids us here? Especially with all the genocide that takes place in the bible.
Noah’s Flood as a starter.
Or 1 Samuel 15:2-3 (or any of the ones I’ve posted above).
You go on to point out the act of hurting (Unless the family member in question was doing some condoned hurting for whatever gratification. I don’t really care, or want to know, that’s private business, that I respect, if condoned.)and stealing. Well again, both are not consented, and both cause suffering, so my position seems to remain in tact. Furthermore I do feel this position is congruent with empiricism, because empirically we can prove what does and doesn’t cause suffering, in addition we can prove objectively If there was consent or not. Perhaps not all the time, but it’s feasible.
The stone and beach example are relatively silly, they are non-sentient, non-cognitive, material objects. They can’t suffer or feel pleasure, and they can’t agree or disagree. Where as in murder, I’m willing to wager that if you asked “Hey care to be murdered today?” You’ll receive a no and if the murder isn’t instantaneous you’ll receive a double no for the suffering aspect. So throw those stones, but please, don’t throw children into stones?
(Pslams 137:9)
I’ll agree with you though that there are many nuanced instances, and I believe this confirms my point, that the bible is antiquated. If your government ask you to kill someone because they are reading socialist material, well I’d say no, what the individual is doing is harmless. Now if they say kill this individual because tomorrow he’ll kill TWO individuals, I’d condone it, because we have effectively mitigated suffering, and a decision reached without consent.
Before you reach your conclusion you go off in to some theology, that I believe I tackled in earlier post. Since I don’t believe the first premise, that the bible was written by the cause of the cosmos, I don’t believe the tennents that follow, regardless of how they stand up to OTHER supernatural, untenable, “revealed” books. What’s to stop me from right now drafting a book, that was inspired by a deity? My moral convictions mostly, but If I’m perhaps mentally ill, megalomaniac, schizophrenic, etc, I bet I could make a good one
Oh and even if I did believe the bible was written by the cause of the cosmos, and I joined the Calvinist sect with you, we’d still be in disagreement with thousands of other sects.
Your conclusion I find arduous to address, because I’ve been addressing it for weeks. There are no metaphysical assumptions in relation to “why” when it comes to the scientific method. I’ve expressed that a zillion times over, I’m tired of doing it. As far as numbers, I believe I’ve address that, they are numerals that represent the empirical and immutable laws of the cosmos. Numbers are irrelevant. If I wrote my 1 as a ö instead, we’d be fine. That’s the great thing about numbers roman numerals, and contemporary numerals have the exact same meaning(and any alien civilization that visits us with e=mc^2 will be fully comprehended, once we get over the numeral barrier). We only write them differently for convenience. Now “why” does the universe do this, well we’ve addressed that countless times, Jesus being the creator is no more tenable than the big crunch, multi verse, string theory, ex nihilio etc, so we should remain militantly agnostic on that point.
On the Christian level they don’t make any more sense, because you are still not explaining the origins of all that supernatural fluff that is superfluous in the first place. Furthermore, they can’t simply be taught at a sunday school, because a Calvinist sunday school is not teaching the same thing as a methodist or catholic sunday school. Or any other religion that followed from the OT, like Islam, or Mormonism.
In addition the bible still doesn’t cover contemporary issues like stem cells, civics, energy policy, etc. Also as shown above it does in fact condone rape and murder. And in many other instances the degree of whats damnable seems fatuous. Remember the Sabbath? Come on…now everyones going to hell. Honor your father and mother, fine to an extent, unless your father is an inmate since before your birth, for charges of pedophilia? Another nuance, that limiting ourself to one text, will not provide the answer to. Though shalt not murder, well as we discussed, if the murder can save more lives than it takes away, is it so wrong? Would you really be upset if someone used a time machine to wipe out Hitler? (Just covering some of the ten commandments).
Now I would be curious to ask as I did above, why some of the other Christian issues weren’t address, like stem cells, homosexuality, swinging, polygamy, bachelorhood, etc. These are areas, where I do find, I almost unanimously disagree with the majority of Christians I meet. And many of them are issues that empiricism does have A LOT to say about. Stem cells being the easiest example.
we come together, I am actively working at it! I Hope all is well on your end.
Although I’m not praying
-Friend
August 11, 2008 at 1:57 am
Friend,
I think you would agree with part of this verse from Romans 2:
Now to another point.
I think this shows a misunderstanding or lack of understanding of basic aspects of Christianity. I’m not a theologian, so bear with me. Regardless of whether humans can determine objectively what is right and wrong, these things are defined by God. God is what “good” is, it’s His very nature. Human beings on the other hand are not “good.” None of us are “good” people to God. So, we’re all in the same boat here.
And Jesus says there is none good but God. Morality I think is a human concept. And the division of people into “good” and “bad” misses the point. The point is, humans can never be good and follow all of God’s laws. This is the point of Christ. He paid the price for our immorality (the breaking of God’s laws for humans), if you will. And on another point, Christians who understand this and have a personal relationship with God do not act morally because they think God is up there with a stick ready to punish them when they do. It’s out of a desire to please God and to follow his will.
Friend, I think the whole discussion might be, “getting the cart before the horse,” for you. If you don’t believe in God, then Christianity will be seen as foolishness by you in all its fine points. If you don’t mind, I’d be curious as to what keeps you from believing in God…
JET, I hope I haven’t intruded too much into your conversation here. If you feel this takes the discussion in a direction you don’t want it to go, please delete my comment.
August 11, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Well First I’m quite impressed with your ability to break down sections into organized boxes like that. I wish I had known how this entire time
please share the info?
Yes that Romans verse is fine. As I’ve said, some verses are good, some are bad(In this case irrelevent). Since I doubt YOU like
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB we haven’t progressed anywhere. Although we have shown that clearly, as mortals, we are arguing against one another, and there is no deistic middle man saying whose right or not. We have one another only. Now give me any book, religious or even some contemporary fiction by Stephen King, and I’ll find you parables, and good morals, along with heinous thought and moral turpitude. Of the tens of thousands of religions since the dawn of man-kind, we’d be playing this game with every holy book until the point of senility.
Actually what I said does show an understanding. I said being moral out of a blackmail/threat scenario isn’t genuine morals. You follow that up with man isn’t “good” only god is “good.” So you’re again, basically telling me I’m threatened. Thank you. I’m not intimidated, and I don’t feel innately bad either. Telling me I was born the opposite of “good” is just frankly offensive. How for instance is Bill Gates “evil?” Or Warren Buffet(Who donated 40 billion dollars to the Bill and Melinda Gates charity)? There are plenty more non-believing philanthropist but it shouldn’t be necessary for me to name them all. Or even myself, why am I “bad?” When I open the door for someone, donate to a cause, offer to help someone pick up an item they’ve dropped, or any number of the various “little” kind things I and regular folk do from day to day, we aren’t being good? I doubt it…Plus we are talking about omnipotence here, rather silly to believe an all powerful deity made me obsolete.
Alright Jesus says none are good but god. People say a lot of things. Watch this: “Everyone’s good, god isn’t necessary”. Or “Some people are good, some aren’t, life can be difficult scrutinizing whose who, good luck.” Or “Only those who listen to me are good, because I said so.” Do you believe any of the three? Oh well doesn’t matter. People say things, some of it’s true, some isn’t. As far as what Christ did, I simply don’t understand the connection. I died for your sins? I was born in 1986….please don’t throw other peoples baggage onto me. This would be like telling me because I’m white and from Florida, I’m responsible for southern slavery. No thank you. In addition it just sounds like saying “I hit myself in the foot with a shovel for your credit card debt.” I simply don’t understand how one connects the other(And I don’t believe the account in genesis so please don’t use that as the connection). You claim this is all to plesae god, but you admit that before you can please god, you must acknowledge that you were born obsolete, and not good. I can’t share that sympathy, and I won’t apologize for it. I’m fine with who I am, that’s that. And so are the billions of people not born into a Christian home. (I fail to understand how the native Americans, or tribes of new guniea are born “bad” when it was geographically IMPOSSIBLE for them to know of Christ until the 15th century for the former, and 1938 for the latter).
Also you have a false dichotomy and saying if I don’t believe in god, christianity will seem foolish. You mean if I don’t believe in Yahweh/Jesus/Holy spirit. Because I very well may believe in a different definition of god, or one of the hundreds of thousands of other deities written about.
What keeps me from believing in God you ask? Do you mean what keepsme from believing in Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Spirit? If it’s that question, Joe’s blog is quite filled with the reasons. I’d prefer to ask you, whose answer isn’t laden over this blog, why you don’t believe in any other religion except Christianity, and what processes you went through to deduce that out of all the other hundreds of thousands of religions, you found Christianity to have the most evidence as being true.
August 11, 2008 at 4:32 pm
To the ‘countyShrink’
I believe there’s a general misunderstanding happening here. The discussion here is regarding how we justify a given belief (in this post, ethics) from within one’s worldview. Yes, the law of God is written on our hearts (as Romans states). but to say that morality is a man-made thing is in fact to undermine your position. Here’s what I mean:
In the original post when I spoke of ethics or morality I was speaking about objective values. These values are objective precisely because they are not created by humans (they are God’s laws written on the heart). When Paul says that all are sinners he is saying that all people violate these very laws (so according to Paul, ethics or morality is not a man-made thing).
Also, i’m not quite sure how relevant it is to speak of how sinful humans are. From knowing my own heart, i already know that to be true. but the point at issue in this discussion isn’t whether humans are sinners.
Lastly, I do not ‘defend’ a generic concept of deity before I defend the particularities of Christianity. They are intimately woven in with one another, because there is no other God than the triune God revealed in Christ in Scripture. So If I’m going to give a presentation on God, it’s going to be this very God I speak of.
August 12, 2008 at 2:06 am
–JET
I’m not saying you took the wrong approach in any way. I really don’t disagree with anything you wrote. I just think that for some folks, if they can’t get past the general idea of God’s existent, they are not going to accept a single aspect of Christianity. When I was referring to morality, I was referring to the term and human conceptions of the term.
August 12, 2008 at 2:17 am
Friend said,
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are sinful in their hearts. They break God’s laws just like everyone else despite their occasional good actions. I’m sorry you feel threatened by God. I’ll let you and JET continue as I seem to have misunderstood the direction of the discussion.
Oh, breaking things down into sections is done with the BLOCKQUOTE tag. Type (BLOCKQUOTE) Quoted text here (/BLOCKQUOTE). Replace the parentheses with . I can’t type it because it would partition the text.
August 12, 2008 at 4:11 am
thank you countryshrink for the information
For what it’s worth, I was trying to portray that the concept sounded like a threat when it was put forward in such a fashion – seeing as I’m not a christian, the apology is unnecessary, I simply don’t feel threatened(or innately bad/immoral/sinful/etc).
August 12, 2008 at 6:30 am
I think I have a label for Apolojets position. I think he may be a presuppositionalist.
This is part of a series of posts about a supposed proof of god (not sure which one though)
Check out this;
http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2008/08/sye-dim-presuppositinalism.html
and follow the posts back to get the full story.
I still prefer the term “strawman”.
September 10, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog.
Cheers! Sandra. R.